Yes, I understand. But you just preview the changes and take a screenshot. That way, people can see it, without it being actually changed yet. It is also customary, to talk about theme changes and such, between us admins before just doing it. :)
Sorry guys I've been away for a while but now I'm back.
I'm not sure I like the new word art design and favicon. Initially I had used the exact Andi Mack logo and I think it looked pretty good in my opinion. Right now, it's some deep blue thing that doesn't match Andi Mack theme at all.
As for the name, it should always be a wiki because that's what this is. Not "community". Wiki makes it easier to identify even on google search etc. Also, when you're talking about where you saw some information, you usually say you saw it on Andi Mack wiki, not community. Community is the entire fandom which includes twitter, facebook, tumblr, instagram, etc. We don't represent that entire community. We only represent the wiki part, which is to provide informative content to the world. So, I don't even think a poll is necessary. It will just confuse people.
I mean, if we are gonna use the A from the show's logo then it makes sense we use it as it orignially is (like how it is on the background).
I wonder why we even need to be debating Wiki v Community. Most people that would search for it would use wiki anyway as Star said. It seems like a change that would occur just to say there was a change.
I think before we make major changes like these, we should always consult with the other admins first - especially those who are actually active on the wiki and make actual contributions to articles - and at least explain why a change is needed.
I agree. And don't you think, that if FANDOM would say that you need to refer to these sites as "communities", that they meant like the deeper understanding of the wiki? When you create a wiki now, it will still have the "Wiki" automatically behind. I think if FANDOM wanted that, they would have "Community" automatically on instead. They did change it from Wikia to Wiki, but that's it. :)
Exactly. The sites themselves are wikis and are always going to be wikis. That's literally the dictionary definition of a wiki - a website that allows collaborative editing of its content by users. Wikia/Fandom is just using "community" as just the label for the users of a particular wiki.
And besides, all the biggest / most popular wikis are happily using "wiki." So, why do we need to change?
Fandom has been increasingly referring to these as communites. When I created this wiki, I wanted to keep it fairly modern and progressive, which was the point of using Community. In fact, the original name was Andi Mack Community, until an admin changed it silently, and I left it alone because I did not have the time at the time. I want to push this wiki ahead of others. I hope that is the same idea I share with the community, who will vote in the poll on Friday. This is not an admin team decision, this is the community's.
There was no one who changed it silently. We all decided it should be Wiki, and you were inactive at the time, therefore we could not have a real team decision. And like Starforce said, community is just the label. When they refer to it as communities, they still mean the wikis. If everything is like you say, don't you think that all wikis would do the same as you? I know you want to push it ahead of others, but I just don't think there's anything to push... :)
Don't you guys think that Community sounds more welcoming to people?
Look, I'm going to put it up to a vote on Friday. And if the vote is in favor of Community, then it's staying that way. I think you guys need to open up your minds to something new (or something that was here before).
Yes, we had all agreed to change it to the correct term - Wiki. It wasn't done silently by one person.
It's not about being welcoming. It's about the meaning. Community refers to people. Wiki refers to the website. This is not a group of people. This is a site. You can't just rename everything to "community" just because it's more welcoming. If that were the case, we could rename phones and books and rivers and mountains to "communities." No need for other nouns in the universe.
The people contributing to the wiki are the community. But the site is still a wiki/site. Lookup the definitions of "wiki" and that of "community."
Just because a community works on something doesn't mean the thing should be called a "community." If a community builds a bridge, you don't call the bridge community. Even community colleges are still colleges. They don't get renamed to just community.
There should be screenshots of both designs so that people know exactly what they're voting for. Giving them access to one and just calling the other "the old one" means there would be bias.
So, if you want the poll results to actually mean something, you have to display side by side images of both logos including the favicon. You also can't mention Andi Mack "Community" everywhere else on the poll because that creates a bias too.
Also, you can't rely on people entering their names because someone could vote as someone else. There's nothing stopping a user from entering another user's name to vote multiple times.
Otherwise, if you make the poll biased, the results will be invalid and we'll just have to have admins vote for what's the best for the wiki.
I made sure to mention in the poll that the old logo is the show's logo. Also, once a username is entered, I will only count it once. The poll currently requires a Google account login, so there's only 1 vote per Google Account.
Just mentioning the show's logo isn't good enough. Some people don't even know what logo is or what it is that changed. So, since they have no idea what's being asked, they're like to just choose keep the current one.
Mentioning "Community" everywhere means you're trying to influence them to choose the one with community.
Not every user has a google account. Some use other email services.
So, your poll is basically garbage, some lame attempt to lie to yourself that it was users choice.
I chose Google because it's the busiest online platform in the world. It's not just email. The same account is used for search, YouTube, website hosting, Classroom, etc.
The change of tone that you're using in this ongoing dispute shows that you're trying to criticize me to the point that I will abandon everything. Just know that there is a line you shouldn't cross, and if you do, you'll earn a report to VSTF.
A report to VSTF isn’t really going to do anything, unless there is some kind of vandalism or bad language. We just get kind of angry, that you change stuff without asking us, and your opinions on what a Community is and so on...
My biggest problem is that you don't usually contribute to the wiki at all, and then you come and make changes without consulting the admins that actually contribute to the wiki and know what's good for it.
We basically built the wiki to what it is without your involvement. So, the noble thing to do would be to consult us and respect our opinions.
I'm not sure how you are so shocked that we are opposed to the idea of you just randomly coming onto the wiki and changing the name/logo. It's kinda of an obvious thing to talk to us about that first if you felt that those things should be modifed. Then if we all agreed that we could look into changing it, you would present what you want it to be changed to then we could get community input. You didn't consult anyone and just went ahead and changed them as if you are the only person running the wiki...yet somehow you are shocked by a change of tone. That doesn't add up to me *shrug*
I was just pointing out that Star was stepping on the the site's Guideline #12. I find it hard to respect you guys when you have little respect for me. You guys have disregarded every idea I've had since I brought Rune onto the team last summer.
The name for the site was supposed to be Andi Mack Community from the beginning, and you guys changed it without community input. You three seem to hide in a corner and make all of the decisions without consulting the community at all. If someone could go back on the history of the main page and talk pages and find evidence that you did consult the community, I would love to get a link to that.
When you're doing the initial wiki building or correcting an obvious mistake like "Community" vs "Wiki", you don't need to consult the users on everything. Otherwise, you never get anything done. This wiki had absolutely nothing before we came on board. The admins have to build it first. And then when it's a fully running wiki, they can start involving users in some of the decisions.
Unless you build the wiki, you won't have any active users for you to consult. And you never did anything for the wiki. And the only reason I asked Nic8ole to merge their wiki into this was because I landed here first cuz of the URL.
But again, wiki designing is the responsibility of admins and there's no rule that says they have to ask users every little thing. Look at all the big wikis like mcu that have more users and viewers than us and show me if they rely on everyone else for all key wiki design changes.
You will also notice that very very few users participate in these polls. And they might not even be the active ones. So, you get responses from like just 5 inactive users and that's a statistically bad sample that's likely to be biased and doesn't represent the rest of the user base. And I'm pretty sure you haven't got many respondents on your poll thing either.
I was wondering if RuneMagle, you and I could settle on one specific format for headings / sub sections. I'm seeing a lot of back and forth between Plot/Synopsis/Full Plot and Overview/Plot. I'm open to either but it would be nice if we're all on the same page.
I will ask RuneMagle to check this post so that we can all discuss.
Personally, I like Plot/Full Plot best. Since It makes the most sense. Overview is not the same as plot, and you can't have a full overview, it doesn't sound as good at least. I think Plot/Full Plot sounds best. Although, I think it would be best to have just Plot, and then for full plots adding a Transcript page instead, as some wikis have it, so it's not so much text on the episode page either. That's my thought. :)
Personally, I like to group headings based on their logical order / hierarchy or what they have in common. Since the episode summary and the full plot are under Plot, I would prefer to have Plot as the main heading, then Summary and Full Plot as sub headings. That way, if someone is looking the episode plot, they go to the plot; and then they can either choose the summary or the detailed plot. They way we have Cast as the main heading, then Main Cast and Recurring Cast as sub-headings.
As for having most content on the main episode page, I actually prefer having all content about an episode on the same page instead of using sub-pages that people never read. I like to get all content in one place. Even for things like images. If we want people to see images or our images to get better ranking on search engines like Google, it works best to have them on the same page as the episode.
When episode pages are getting thousands of views per week, our gallery pages can't even get 10 views. So, they're usually like a waste because they never serve their purpose. But if we have them on the episode page, then they reach to more people; become searchable on Google and bring more traffic to the wiki.
Also, if the episode pages are just the shallow skeleton of date, summary, cast and trivia, they don't get as many views because people have nothing to come back to read.
Transcripts take forever to write. And I think they're technically copyrighted.
I actually understand that. I like the idea of the headings, so I will support that. I see Transcripts take a little longer, but I like the way it is, Although it’s probably just a personal opinion. As for the Gallery page, I think it’s okay if it’s a subpage. The people who wants to look at the galleries can look at it there, I don’t think it’ll change their opinions by having it on the episode page, but I have nothing against images on the page though.
Most people usually won't know or bother to open sub-links to find things but once you make them readily available, they become an important part. Positioning things like that is usually key to successful web design. That way, our users don't waste so much effort looking for images that nobody will ever see.
But for now I'm not worried about galleries since I haven't been uploading mass images for episode/character galleries.
1. Regarding the plot, I agree it would be good to have Plot as the main heading with the full plot and shorthand summary in that section.
2. I think the galleries would probably work better as a slideshow on the pages themselves. I mean that deals with some galleries only having like 5 pictures (if even so much) and making some of the galleries look pointless (like if we only have one picture for an episode gallery for instance).
3. Since we are all here, Star could you give an opinion on the introductory sentences of the episode pages (*insert name here* is the - episode in season 2...)? Pretty sure Rune and I have been reverting eachothers versions of that part of the pages since November so should probably settle that too lol.
2. For galleries, I completely agree. There's really no need of separate gallery pages unless we have a lot of images. Having images on the actual pages makes it more interesting for people. We could use slides too as you suggested. If we only have 5 images (or just top 5), we could set them up like what we have on Molly Jackson's page.
3. I'm okay with either using numbers or words for the episode numbers. One advantage of numbers is that they're very easy to spot, even without reading. But I'm open to either format. Whichever one we choose, I think it should be consistent in both the season number and the overall number. That way we don't say "the eleventh episode of season 2 and the 23rd overall."
I know we've had a small reverting war. But I find it is extremely pointless to have numbers. I mean, you don't have "11th episode in the 2nd season" either, so why mess it up so much? I mean most wikis have it with letters. Think of Dance Moms Wiki, Pretty Little Liars, many more. What is the actual reason to shorten it? And why would it matter if it gets spotted or not? That is not gonna change anything.
Also the same thing with writing "season 2" with a capital S on the episode pages. It is irrelevant and useless, and I can't find any other wiki having it that way. and if there is, it's definitely not many. Not that we need to be like other wikis, but personally I also think it looks really annoying, inconsistent and lazy. Like we didn't bother to write it.
1. Hmm. Well I was thinking we could just have both - is the 1st (first) episode- but I don't really know if that makes much sense. I personally prefer the numbers but if yall want to go with the words only that's fine.
2. Hmm I personally usually write it with the common s cause the capital S in the middle of the sentence bothers me for some reason but I do see your point. And I mean it is linking to a proper page so capitalizing probably makes more sense.
1. If we're all okay with using words for the number in the season, maybe we could use words too for the overall number. But I'm going to support anything you guys agree on.
2. I actually prefer "Season 2" to "season 2". Technically, when saying "Season 2," it's a proper noun. It's the official name of the season. If we want to use lowercase, we would say something like, "... is the first episode of the second season of..."
I'm not a fan of the numbers, if I didn't make that clear enough, lol. :) Plus, both makes it even more worse. Since it will look more stupid having both, than just one. I also thought of the page. Like, what bothered me is linking to the Season 2 page with common s is actually not the page name.
Also, I didn't understand why it was the same thing with categories. Like "Season 2 episodes". Why have common s again? Still, I don't see many wikis with that, although I do find that less important, but I still think that should be discussed too.
I haven't been looking at categories closely lately. So, I'm not exactly sure the issue with that.
Okay, I'm guessing we agree with these:
Use "Plot" section with "Summary" and "Full Plot" sub-sections.
Place images on the parent page unless we have many (like 20+) images
Use words for episode number in both the season and overall in the opening sentence.
Use capital S when referring to Season 1, Season 2 etc.
I have another suggestion. For Spoiler Alert, could we keep the spoiler warning up until like Sunday? I like to start adding stuff right away but some people can take a day or so to watch the episode. If not let's at least keep it up the whole Friday, for the sake of West Coast. Most sites usually keep spoiler warning when doing an episode recap because they know some people don't watch right away.
Hmm. Maybe we could keep the tag up until the next episode airs? A number of people do tend to take up to a week to fully watch an episode. If there is like a break after an episode airs (like 2 weeks or more) then keep it up for a week.
I have one more thing that I think we should discuss. I was wondering if we should create an Adoption request for bureaucrat rights? Rjbear178 has been inactive for almost two months in a few days now, and it would be nice with bureaucrat rights.
Also, so I can remove all the content moderator stuff he gave me, which admin rights already provides. I already adopted for bureaucrat rights on a wiki sometime ago, so I can't do it now. But if you two agree, one of you can create an adoption request for the wiki, and say we all agreed to get bureaucrat rights. :)
Oh sure, we could do that. Should we actually wait until the 2 months pass or just do it now (I remember when I adopted the Stuck in the Middle Wiki it took about 2 weeks for it to go through so the last couple of days until he is 2 months inactive doesn't really matter).
I meant the one who will request it, should request that we all should get the rights. Why only have one? I mean, we all deserve it. And now it's Merrystar and JoePlay. So it only takes about a week to get reviewed.
Despite the fact that there is only two other Adoption requests, you should get reviewed pretty fast, so it would make sense to wait untill Monday. But you can also do it now. Then they'll just tell you to wait a day anyway. But then at least we won't be in line, lol.
I've adopted many wikis. If it gets reviewed before the actual date, we just have to wait till the date, and then they'll add the rights. Or else, we will have to wait more. But I'm fine with it. Just working out the fastest plan. :)
I was wondering too, wouldn't it be better to change the wiki name back to Andi Mack Wiki? Calling it Community is longer, and doesn't make sense, because Wiki and Community are kinda the same thing. Plus, all wikis are called Wiki in the end so...
Agreed also. But to request someone's bureaucrat rights to be removed, they must've been inactive for a year. Although, I think there might be an exception if all of staff agrees though, but I'm not sure.
There are some changes I'm making, but I've decided to run them by you first just so we're all on the same page.
1. Absent Cast - In the cast section, instead of adding a subsection for "Absent Cast", they should be listed in the Main Cast section because that's how they're credited in the show. Instead we would add "(credit only)" notation to their names. That's usually the standard and even IMDb uses that when a main cast is credited but absent in the episode. Other high quality wikis like The 100, MCU follow that too.
2. References - When citing a reference, the displayed text (in Reflist) should be something meaningful instead of just 1, 2, 3... which don't tell the user anything unless they click on the link. It should either be left to display the URL (by not adding "[" "]" around it); or set to display the article title (and if possible include the publisher and the article date). Wikipedia and all the high quality wikis follow that rule too for references. Having a reflist section that displays nothing but a long list of numbers, takes away the entire purpose of having the reflist section in the first place. So, I want us to change that.
For comparison, take a look at this episode of The 100 and see how they do their Absent Cast and References: Praimfaya.